DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

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#11 DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by tmacklin » Sun, 22 May 16, 20:15 pm

The Dallas Area Rocket Society http://www.dars.org/ was finally able to host a launch in north Texas after weeks of postponements because of rain as well as other setbacks. And Uncle Ted was there to enjoy it, sort of!

I flew two of my fleet, the first being an Estes Majestic given to me by my son on Christmas 2014. I flew it as a single stage on an Estes E15-6 engine which seemed to burn forever and went almost out of site. It was recovered without damage about 1500 feet west of the pads. Sorry, no pictures, but here is a flight as a two stage rocket from about 16 months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tl8dQ6iNQ4

My next and last flight was my Estes Renegade D two stage rocket and I should have left it on the display shelf as this was far and away the best paint job I've ever done. I had built this sci-fi "stock", with 18mm engine mounts in both stages. I had a gut feeling about this, as with all the decorative fins and pods on the booster a single C6 engine did not have adequate thrust to achieve flight stability. The slight crosswind caused an immediate weather cocking and when the rocket staged resulted in a cruise missile which almost made it across the 20 acre lake about 400 yards east.....almost. The sustainer splashed down in the lake about 100 feet short of the eastern shore, floated for about 10 minutes and then sank to its watery grave. I did retrieve the booster section intact, save and except for a bit of mud on the fake pods.

I did manage to take a few pictures of the Renegade D on the pad and all in all it was a great day on God's Green Earth.
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tmacklin
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#12 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by tmacklin » Mon, 30 May 16, 03:55 am

Ghrocketman wrote:Was the Majestic flight on a REALLY old Estes 24mm E15-6 (the ones known for "kabooming") or was it a 29mm E16-6 or a 29mm F15-6 ?
I gotta think that E15-6 was a typo.
Correction: I flew it on a single Estes F15-6, 29mm, black powder engine, one of the new 29mm Estes engines.
My bad. My bad eyesight! Thanks GH for pointing this out. About a year ago I flew it two staged, F15-0 to an F15-6, and it weather****ed badly on the boost and then went cruise missile on the sustainer. Too much dead load with that combination. An E16-0 to an E16-6 would be a much better flight if I can ever find these on the shelf locally.

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#13 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by bernomatic » Mon, 30 May 16, 05:41 am

[quote="tmacklin"
Correction: I flew it on a single Estes F15-6, 29mm, black powder engine, one of the new 29mm Estes engines.
My bad. My bad eyesight! Thanks GH for pointing this out. About a year ago I flew it two staged, F15-0 to an F15-6, and it weather****ed badly on the boost and then went cruise missile on the sustainer. Too much dead load with that combination. An E16-0 to an E16-6 would be a much better flight if I can ever find these on the shelf locally.[/quote]

For a minute there I was a bit confused :? , not about the engine type, but about the editing of the word weathercocked. I thought I was over on YORF for a second. The bad words settings here at the Cantina are set such that we can act like mature adults and know when a word is being used in a vulgar manner and when it is just being used in normal speech. So when I say "*oops you said word #5", that will be edited, but cockpit, the cock crows and weathercocked are all OK for daily consumption.
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#14 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by tmacklin » Mon, 30 May 16, 17:01 pm

bernomatic wrote:[quote="tmacklin"
Correction: I flew it on a single Estes F15-6, 29mm, black powder engine, one of the new 29mm Estes engines.
My bad. My bad eyesight! Thanks GH for pointing this out. About a year ago I flew it two staged, F15-0 to an F15-6, and it weather****ed badly on the boost and then went cruise missile on the sustainer. Too much dead load with that combination. An E16-0 to an E16-6 would be a much better flight if I can ever find these on the shelf locally.
For a minute there I was a bit confused :? , not about the engine type, but about the editing of the word weathercocked. I thought I was over on YORF for a second. The bad words settings here at the Cantina are set such that we can act like mature adults and know when a word is being used in a vulgar manner and when it is just being used in normal speech. So when I say "*oops you said word #5", that will be edited, but cockpit, the cock crows and weathercocked are all OK for daily consumption.[/quote]

Hey, I was only pullin' yer ****!

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#15 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by Ghrocketman » Mon, 30 May 16, 19:01 pm

For the outer cluster tubes on the Renegade booster, have the 18mm boosters 'eject'; don't vent them or use for ignition of the upper stage; only use the central motor to ignite the upper stage. That way the booster has no further 'recovery' weight once the outboard tubes eject the motors. Standard booster motors may work if you try them (the burn thru pressure probably is enough)...I know B6-2's and B4-2's would. C6-3's probably would. No suitable short-delay 18mm A-class motors exist any longer, so you would be stuck with A8-0's. The old A5-2's would work but good luck finding any of those old thick-walled motors that were last produced in like 1973. Adapting down to 13mm A3-2T's could work. I don't think A10-3T's would though. The delay is too long and you would probably have ground-ejection.
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#16 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by tmacklin » Mon, 30 May 16, 22:30 pm

Ghrocketman wrote:For the outer cluster tubes on the Renegade booster, have the 18mm boosters 'eject'; don't vent them or use for ignition of the upper stage; only use the central motor to ignite the upper stage. That way the booster has no further 'recovery' weight once the outboard tubes eject the motors. Standard booster motors may work if you try them (the burn thru pressure probably is enough)...I know B6-2's and B4-2's would. C6-3's probably would. No suitable short-delay 18mm A-class motors exist any longer, so you would be stuck with A8-0's. The old A5-2's would work but good luck finding any of those old thick-walled motors that were last produced in like 1973. Adapting down to 13mm A3-2T's could work. I don't think A10-3T's would though. The delay is too long and you would probably have ground-ejection.
I've already rebuilt the booster stage with a single, 24mm engine mount. I debated about doing exactly as you describe but decided against it for simplicity sake. Had I modified the side booster pods there would always be the possibility that they would ignite but the central motor might not...bad scenario. I'll post some progress pics later this evening. :)

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#17 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by Rocket Babe » Tue, 31 May 16, 00:51 am

If I ever do one of these I'm going to go with 3 C's on the first stage. That's plenty of kick.

FWIW, I think the first stage is way under powered and should have been a D by design, just too susceptible to even a soft breeze. I've only seen a a couple of Renegades fly over the years but they all seem to make a sharp turn right off the pad then stage at low altitude. Never seen one make it to 75 feet before staging and by then it's a cruise missile.

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#18 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by Ghrocketman » Wed, 01 Jun 16, 19:10 pm

"Cruise Missile"/Powr-VEER flights from multi-stagers are almost as funny as Powr-Prangs !
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#19 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by tmacklin » Thu, 02 Jun 16, 22:48 pm

Ghrocketman wrote:"Cruise Missile"/Powr-VEER flights from multi-stagers are almost as funny as Powr-Prangs !
I had this weird dream where I substituted regular fireproof wadding with gasoline soaked toilet paper and pushed the button. It was a real crowd pleaser...at least in this dream.

Then I woke up. :cry:

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#20 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by Rocket Babe » Sun, 05 Jun 16, 00:33 am

bernomatic wrote:I was wondering about your 3 engine cluster idea, but a couple of things came to mind why not to try it. From one of my first threads on YOLF, the discussion covered many power variations, including sticking engines in all those show tubes. Don't quote me, but IIRC the CP/CG relationship of the complete rocket was not adversely affected by all the added weight. What does start to become affected however is the weight of the booster for recovery. I have a feeling with all the added weight, fins and other accouterments would be snapping off at impact with the ground. To adapt it from a one to one staging to a three to one staging while awesome, would likely also add too much weight to the booster.


I wish I didn't have to work so much. I'm just now seeing this with the time for a short response and wondering :? if anyone has ever been to our website? :?: Anything can be modified to multiple engines and stages. My philosophy is if it has an 18mm or 24mm tube, it should have an engine in it. :!: All I build and fly are heavily modified midpower clusters, some of which are multiple staged. All are well outside the manufacturers intended design and intent, but all are within the abilities of the designs. All fly very nicely and they really weren't that hard to build with just a little experience and the "Babe" to try.

Yes, I'm the reason manufacturers have disclaimers. :twisted: :lol:

I guess I'm going to have to find time to post a few here with coaching points.

Remember, every tube should have an engine! ;) :D :lol:

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#21 Re: DARS Launch at Gunter 05/21/16

Post by Ghrocketman » Sun, 05 Jun 16, 03:43 am

I too can NEVER seem to find 29mm E16-0 boosters locally.
Plenty of F15-0's but no E16 boosters.
My local Hobby Lobby carries all the Estes 29mm BP engines EXCEPT the E16-0's for some stupid reason. They don't carry 24mm E12's in ANY flavor either and that to me makes ZERO sense. I would rather have a 24 mm E12 over any of the E9's. What's even worse is the dedicated real hobby shop 1/2mi down the road refuses to carry any rocket motors larger than a D !
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