Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

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#1 Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by Commander »

As can be seen in Luke's recent posts on Red Hobby and Apogee Components both here and over on YORF (and maybe another forum or two), people love to be easily offended. It doesn't matter how gently a critique is put forth, someone is bound to take offense anymore. Have we become so thin skinned as a society that we can't even take a little bit criticism without blowing off the roof? Is everything really so touchy that to discuss something with the intent to make someone or something possible better is really a matter to take up your keyboard weapons?

:!: By The Way, I would prefer not to get into any discussion about specific matters relating to those other two threads. I'll move any post discussing Red Hobby or Apogee to the appropriate thread :!:

Now don't look at me and yell hypocrite, you defend and attack all day long. Yes I do, and I wouldn't have created this forum if I didn't want to hear different opinions. That is not quite what I'm talking about. Let me see if I can make the subtle distinction clear :ugeek:

If we are talking about paints and painting, and I say that such and such rocket needs six coats of primer and you tell me that is probably way to much, four would do just as well and be lighter, that is constructive criticism and doesn't need to be the beginning of World War III. If on the other hand you tell me that the type of primer Is wrong and I should be using XYZ brand, that is an opinion and we could be arguing til the cows come home.

I don't know if I have really found the difference, and of course the whole thing may add up to whether or not the individual is looking for some advice.The distinction just seems to elude me, nuanced as it is.
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#2 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by luke strawwalker »

Umm...kay... I'm a bit confused... (not surprising I'm told LOL:)

Are you saying I'm being a jerk or having a "tirade" for posting this stuff or that other people are too touchy in rushing to some of these company's defense when someone (ie me) points out things they see wrong and have a legitimate gripe?

I see both sides of it, in a way. I can understand it's human nature to rush to the defense of someone that you have had good relations with or good dealings with, who you think may be "unfairly" being "attacked"... OTOH, I can see (and that's where I'm coming from) that if you have a LEGITIMATE gripe against some business, you have a right to express the FACT that they handled the situation poorly, or are selling substandard crap, or aren't holding up their end of the bargain...

I try to be fair and unbiased about it. Like I said, I've met both Dave and Tim in person and they were very nice-- but I *DO* think that there is room for improvement in how they do business, or in Tim's case, how he "expresses" himself about business-related matters. IF Red Arrow was still around, I had planned going up there to their store in the spring after the crop planting was done in Indiana to buy some casings and maybe some kits... Given RAH's track record, I wouldn't ORDER ONLINE from him, but I *WOULD* buy from him "in person", so that my money and his product trade hands fair and square and I walk out with product in-hand. Nothing but good things to say about dealing with him face-to-face. Of course probably most people don't have that option...

Same thing with Tim-- I'd buy from Apogee in a second, though I'd look to see if I could get it cheaper elsewhere, which is probably what a lot (most?) people would do as well. I wouldn't give a second thought to doing an online order with Apogee-- I KNOW they give great service, but I also know that *sometimes* their prices are higher, by quite a bit, and if not sometimes shipping can bite you in the butt.

I just think that when you make shitty comments to a customer who bought stuff from you when he's having problems with his purchase, or say certain things publicly in writing about potential customers, that they're not 'valuable' to you if they're not repeat customers or frequent customers or their cheapskates if they look for cheaper prices or if they watch your videos and newsletter without buying from you to support it, or if you use some rather "slick willy used-car-dealer" type approaches in your sales descriptions and writing, I think that's rather TACKY and in poor taste. Especially when one claims to have "THE best customer service in the business"...

As someone posted in the YORF thread, SEMROC treated EVERY customer like their number one customer! That is true, I can attest to that. I couldn't imagine Sheryl or Carl writing you an email if you had a problem with your purchase and saying something to the effect "thats' why you should have bought White Glue instead of Wood Glue!" with a condescending "you're an idiot" type implication to it because you had the problem... Folks have recounted over the years about how even when *THEY* CLEARLY screwed up and didn't follow the directions or misunderstood or did it wrong or whatever, that usually Carl or Sheryl would send them replacement parts FREE and have them mailed out THE SAME DAY they received the communication alerting them to the customer's problem! No shitty comments, no "if you're not buying from me without looking for a cheaper price, you're a cheapskate" no "if you're not a frequent customer you're not worth the effort to please you" type comments, just "so sorry that happened to you; your replacement parts were mailed this afternoon, good luck and let us know how we can help you!" THAT is *TRULY* Excellent customer service.

Everybody knew it too-- Semroc didn't have to run around and plaster fawning comments all over every page of their website telling you how great they were... and they didn't have to constantly break their own arm patting themselves on the back telling you how great they are... they just quietly let their ACTIONS speak for them... Not that Carl never said, "we aim to have the best customer service possible", I know for a fact he did when I commented on it at NARAM in Muncie, Indiana years ago... He and Sheryl spent about an hour with my nephews, trying to find them the RIGHT kit for their 4-H aerospace fair entries, while they were kind of indifferent or goofing around... I commented how nice it was of them to take the time to work with them, rather than just try to sell them the most expensive thing they could regardless of whether it would be a good fit for them and their project or not...

Anyway, I hope I've made myself clear. I don't "knock" on vendors unless they've done something to DESERVE it. I don't hand out mindless praise for them either "just because"... if they've gone "above and beyond" though I'm certainly willing to state as much, and Carl and Sheryl certainly did, on nearly every occasion I dealt with them. It's truly sad that they're no longer running Semroc and that the things that happened had to happen that way.

Later! OL J R :)
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#3 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by Commander »

You went and did it, you went and rehashed an argument you've made a number of times. That was what the warning was for. This thread isn't about knocking on vendors, it's about getting your panties in a wad.

Believe it or not, I was supporting you in a way, Luke. I knew your intent, that you weren't saying we should throw the baby out with the bath water, that maybe we should use water that isn't so cold next time. I understand.

I'm tired of people who take a comment to the extreme. You say maybe she should wear a different blouse and everyone comes down on you for wanting to divorce her. You look around and say what? I'm wondering about the philosophy behind the reaction, not the merits of the complaint. I'm wondering if everyone is so tightly wound that just making a simple observation is enough to set them off.

I have been set off, even recently, over slight peccadilloes. I am trying to curb that reaction, but it seems like I have been trained to be one of Pavlov's dogs over certain things. I want to have control over myself and not be so reactionary at all times. If we don't have control over our own thoughts but can be set off by someone else, are we really in control of ourselves?

It is true that there are occasions when one does need to act, and act now. Just on the bus this morning their was a younger lady with her man. They had some baggage with them and had it sitting on some seats. Even though the bags were sitting on a handicap seat, the bus was not crowded and no harm was being done. Well there stop came up and they went to get off the bus and the young lady set her water bottle down on another empty seat while she started to gather her stuff. Well an older lady got on the bus and sat down on the water bottle and the young lady had a fit. Of course the older lady didn't she the bottle, but that didn't matter to the young lady, she had been offended. The young lady started verbally haranguing the older lady and getting in her face. I said that she hadn't paid for three seats and shouldn't have put her bottle there. Well, now she was even more offended because I had called out her inconsiderate attitude. She flicked her hand in my face and told me to mind my own business and stormed off the bus. Now the young lady very well may not ever get it, but deflecting her acrimony from the older lady felt like I had done my good deed for the day.
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#4 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by luke strawwalker »

Awrightythen...

I was just making a point. Maybe guilty of belaboring it a bit, but nevertheless given that I've had several folks respond with asshat remarks like "you're doing the company harm-- you should retract your statements before you're sued for libel" and handwaving type comments such as "nonsense-- Apogee has great customer service" as if either of those invalidate what I'm trying to say.

1) It isn't "libel" to comment on what the OWNER HIMSELF has said IN HIS OWN WORDS OR WRITINGS, in which he's expressed the attitudes mentioned. It isn't "libel" to communicate less than stellar responses to customer service issues that actually happened with a particular vendor, and comment on how those responses "measure up" and express an opinion on where and how things might be improved. I suppose one COULD term such a discussion a "tirade", but IMHO that's a bit of an overreaction-- getting extremely worked up and engaging in personal attacks or condemning them outright might be a "tirade" by my definition, in which case YES I'm quite guilty of a TIRADE against the thieves at LAUNCH magazine... but they STOLE FROM ME and I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit back and say that's "alright" when IT IS NOT. As for my discussion about Apogee and Tim, I've tried to keep it "on an even keel" and praised Tim and Apogee for their personableness and good customer service, while saying that there IS room for improvement... I'd call that "constructive criticism".

2) The ONLY reason I brought the subject up here is because I'm trying to make a point-- We can FREELY discuss such things HERE, whereas discussion of the RESPONSES would be verboten and lead to a hoo-hah that the management doesn't need over on YORF, cause some people to be butt-hurt because they were called out on their comments, etc. (ie the guys (not mentioning names) who implied my comments were "libel" or "nonsense", when I can back them up, whether they choose to believe that or not). The discussion has shifted from the point I was trying to make to rehashing the actions and writings of TVM in regards to Apogee customer service, which wasn't the intention, but seemed necessary for point of clarification, since people didn't seem to be getting what I was talking about.

I would think that a "free speech zone" would imply exactly that-- freedom to discuss a topic as one sees fit, and let the chips fall where they may. I guess that's okay until someone decides its a "tirade" instead of "constructive criticism"?? Or am I misunderstanding the point you're trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that on OTHER FORUMS, it has at various times been verboten to post less than flattering information about a vendor, such as bad customer service interactions with said company. Even if the discussion does "sneak under the radar", usually there is the same group of easily butt-hurt weenies who will INSTANTLY charge to their defense, posting things like "you're not allowed to discuss that!" or "you should handle your dirty laundry between yourself and the vendor in private", or "you're just attacking one of our valuable vendors and you have no right to do so, even if you were "wronged". Or, you get the sort of garbage that instantly popped out of the woodwork when I made even the slightest comment unflattering about Apogee, saying I was posting "nonsense" (which is clearly untrue because what happened DID happen to me), or "libel" (despite the fact that I was commenting on things TVM HIMSELF has said in his own newsletter).

In a larger sense, I was also commenting on the fact that things can be true whether we choose to believe them or not. At what point does "defense" become self-delusion??

Anyway, that's what I was trying to say. It's in the past and not that big of a deal, but I for one get just a little bit tired of SOME PEOPLE who will defend BAD BEHAVIOR irregardless, simply because THEY were not the one who got burned...

I was surprised that a certain someone over on YORF didn't launch into a tirade against me for DARING to call the folks at LAUNCH who never refunded my 3 year subscription money nor delivered the promised product THIEVES for their actions (which, in fact, they are, or perhaps the more accurate legal definition is FRAUDS... either way the implications are the same-- people who are not trustworthy or honorable businesspeople). I've had a certain someone land in the middle of me with both feet over daring to tell the truth about what LAUNCH's owners did to me (and a lot of other people as well), commenting on what WONDERFUL people they are and how they have done SO MUCH for the hobby... all this sort of stuff. That may be, but I have a different take on it. Even when they were trying to get LAUNCH magazine up and running, they were hobnobbing with the elite and throwing expensive parties (like for the Apollo 7 anniversary) among other things, and their "lavish giving" to various rocketry-related 'causes'... Yes, they were VERY GENEROUS-- WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY! Then of course it's all crying and boo-hooing about "those poor people" when their Launch magazine went under, the bills and credit cards came due for all that bigshot giving and hobnobbing, and suddenly they close up shop and take off with money paid them IN GOOD FAITH for product that has not and never will be delivered. They've talked about coming back, about doing a web magazine that folks can subscribe to, and as soon as folks like me who were ROBBED by those thieves ask if they plan to MAKE IT RIGHT by offering free subscriptions to their potential web-mag in lieu of refunds for the unfulfilled subscriptions paid to them, they instantly disappear AGAIN.

If certain people want to elevate various vendors and stuff to "sainthood", I reserve the right to point out where I *KNOW FOR A FACT* that they have done things undeserving of that status. If that rubs some people's fur the wrong way because I popped their little bubble for them publicly and they want to say how horrible I am or I'm just "stirring *oops you said word #1 up" or whatever, so be it.

I know the truth... and sometimes the truth HURTS.

That is what my point was.

Later! OL J R :)
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#5 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by Commander »

And my point is, not that I'm going to delete you, but that I would move the post continuing to rant about the vendors to the other thread in the Cantina where you were discussing it. And to be clear, I don't consider your initial comments a rant or tirade. I thought they were meant to be helpful.

My admonition was to try and keep additional postings about those subjects out of this thread, not to limit discussion.

So I wonder, can there be a discussion about tirades without starting one?
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#6 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by bernomatic »

Ted, your comment was moved to the Apogee Components thread under post #12.
:!: By The Way, I would prefer not to get into any discussion about specific matters relating to those other two threads. I'll move any post discussing Red Hobby or Apogee to the appropriate thread :!:
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#7 Re: Constructive Criticism or Tirade?

Post by luke strawwalker »

Commander wrote:And my point is, not that I'm going to delete you, but that I would move the post continuing to rant about the vendors to the other thread in the Cantina where you were discussing it. And to be clear, I don't consider your initial comments a rant or tirade. I thought they were meant to be helpful.

My admonition was to try and keep additional postings about those subjects out of this thread, not to limit discussion.

So I wonder, can there be a discussion about tirades without starting one?
Perhaps not...

But as Mr. Spock would say-- there are always-- POSSIBILITIES!!! LOL:)

Later! OL J R :)
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