Haters gonna hate, defenders gonna defend...

[luke strawwalker]

Well, it's come up again... the subject of "LAUNCH" magazine and how their aborted attempt at a magazine (good as it was while it lasted) ended up screwing a LOT of good rocketry folks out of their hard-earned money when they folded up shop and cut and ran with the money they'd gotten, without one word of warning or ONE DAMN THING being done on their part to attempt to make it right. I didn't realize it but some folks got burned by them even after the magazine was shut down, when they paid up front for a 1,2, or even 3 year subscription... I had a 3 year subscription and I got like 1 or 2 magazines before they folded up shop and cut-n-ran with the money.

In a thread over on YORF, the subject came up, as it periodically does from time to time. Inevitably, some of us who were left "holding the bag" after they split with our money point out the FACT that those THIEVES did in fact STEAL OUR MONEY that we paid in GOOD FAITH to support their "noble efforts on behalf of the rocketry community"... and the FACT that they did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to even ATTEMPT to make it right... no refunds, no "alternative means of fulfillment" (ie sending out a different magazine, or anything else for that matter). Hell not even a PERSONAL APOLOGY... (not counting 'blanket apologies posted online' or in print). No... those thieves kept taking money until NO MORE MONEY CAME IN, and did NOTHING in return for any of it.

If that's not theft I don't know what is...

Now of course the "usual suspects" that CHARGE to their defense EVERY TIME the subject comes up, and every time those of us they SCREWED point out the fact that they DID screw us and HOW they screwed us, have come CHARGING to their defense ONCE MORE... Okay, I get it... opinions are like assholes, and every asshole has an opinion, and for better or worse, we live in a country where one is entitled to hold whatever opinion they want, right or wrong. So be it, and I acknowledge their right to hold and voice a differing opinion... what I CANNOT understand is how they come to such ridiculous conclusions...

One constantly harps on "how much were you taken for"?? As if that makes ANY difference?? HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO STEAL **BEFORE** IT BECOMES WRONG??? "Oh, you got taken for ten bucks?? Thirty bucks?? Sixty bucks?? OH BOO-HOO, GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON!" By that thinking, some of these jokers who've made off with BILLIONS are no more accountable... after all, "in for a penny, in for a pound!", right?? WRONG. STEALING IS STEALING-- doesn't matter if it's $10 or $10 BILLION... but I guess to the libtards, it's all a "matter of degrees"...

Then there's the "so long as it's other people's money" crowd... If it's **THEIR** money that's stolen, that's ONE THING-- 'they was ROBBED!"... but if it's SOMEONE ELSE'S MONEY, well, that's "not so bad" and they need to "get over it"...

And, of course "Boy Geoge" gASShat came charging out of the woodwork to their defense, as expected. I have the ASSHAT on ignore, but enough was quoted from his rants that I got the gist of what was blocked... basically they had "good intentions" and anyone not "giving them a pass" is just shitting on everything they tried to do for rocketry and humanity in general. As usual, BULLSHIT, GEORGE!! "THE PATH TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS"... I guess the gASShat never heard of that saying... It doesn't matter if someone is stealing for "the greater good" or whatever, STEALING IS STEALING and a THIEF IS A THIEF. "THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO DO THE WRONG THING!" I'm sure that gASSbag hasn't heard of that one, either...

I'm sure sooner or later the next thing that will be pointed out, probably from the one who's pointed it out before, is "how much GOOD the thieves in question tried to do for model rocketry"... Oh yes, they jet setted around throwing lavish parties for their ex-astronaut buddies, hob-nobbing at space soirees, and giving generously to various rocketry causes, all to get their name in print and keep it prominent and rub elbows with the well connected to further themselves and their own aims... To this I've said before and I'll say again, "IT"S REALLY EASY TO BE GENEROUS WITH OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY!" , to wit, you're not a 'good guy" when you steal from others, no matter how much hob-nobbing you do with the rich and famous and how much you donate of your ill gotten gains to whatever "the cause" is this week, particularly to get your name in print and prominence...

So while a lot of rocketry people were fawning all over these jokers (and even now YEARS later CONTINUE TO DO SO) for their 'generosity', they were STEALING from other fine rocketry folks who were foolish enough to trust them and wanted to support what they were "trying to do"... and yet EVEN NOW, it's not those fine folks who were STOLEN FROM who are commiserated with, NO, the "fawning idiots" come charging to the THIEVES defense, citing all the "good things" they did and the "good intentions" that they had-- even if they turned into THIEVES at the end...

Sorry, but I still call a spade a spade, and a thief a thief... The FACT that they did these things is INDISPUTABLE-- it is a matter of historical record. The FACT that they did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to attempt to rectify the situation is ALSO a matter of record. Yet still there are those who denigrate the victims and defend the perpetrators and their illicit actions... SICKENING!

Rocketry has had MORE than its fair share of charlatans, robbers, and thieves... "intentions" be damned, RESULTS ARE ALL THAT COUNTS. We all know how "Sheri's Hot Rockets" stole from her customers before she finally folded up shop and cut and run with the money. Lots of people got burned for a lot of money for those high-dollar high power kits she cranked out, and a lot more were "lucky" enough to get a substandard or incomplete kit. Her increasingly screeching replies to questions about her business practices and how she eventually cut off all communications and then just 'cut-n-run' with the money and didn't even respond to customers anymore is well documented on the forums, if one goes back far enough to find it. Similarly, Red Arrow Hobbies ended up stumbling down the same sort of path, and eventually folded up shop, leaving a lot of people in a lurch having paid for product they never saw or likely never will see. Many accounts of money paid and no refunds are also well documented on the forums. Whether by deliberate intention or simply benign neglect or shoddy business practices, these vendors FAILED to fulfill what they had promised IN GOOD FAITH to deliver... and they made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER (at least in SHR and Launch Magazine's case) to make it good. (Not sure if RAH refunded anybody or not, so I don't want to paint with too wide a brush here, in all fairness). It doesn't matter if they shrifted someone out of $10 bucks or $1000 bucks-- it's still THEFT... they were paid for something they DID NOT DELIVER, and they were OBLIGATED TO RETURN THE MONEY, BUT DID NOT! It's real simple-- when you take money for something and don't deliver it, that is THEFT...

Anyway, then the "well it was a long time ago, let bygones be bygones, water under the bridge, forgive and forget" comments start. Yes, that's true. I don't think anybody ended up in the poorhouse over whatever LAUNCH magazine's owners STOLE from them... But you see, it's the PRINCIPLE OF THE THING... theft is theft, regardless of how much or little it was. IT WAS STILL WRONG. Okay, yes, it's been about a decade ago already. SO WHAT?? The FACT remains that the people involved were THIEVES-- they took money for product they never delivered and didn't refund said money-- doesn't matter if it was 10 years ago or 10,000 years ago... a FACT remains a FACT irregardless of how much time passes... And while it's easy to forgive someone for stealing "someone else's money", particularly when it was in the 'past' and all that... that doesn't negate the fact that it was WRONG, and they HAVE DONE NOTHING to rectify it, make up for it, IN ORDER TO RESTORE THEIR REPUTATION and HONOR. I can forgive, BUT I DAMN SURE CAN'T FORGET... these types of idiots are still around, looking for someone to prey upon... we always have and always will have a certain number of charlatans and thieves in rocketry, just as in every other field of human endeavor... but we DON'T need to "forget about it" and "let bygones be bygones"... NO, we need to REMEMBER and WARN OTHERS so that they don't get "taken"... Vigilance for the common good, because the ONLY way we will deter or stop this sort of nonsense is by CONFRONTING IT, and HOLDING THOSE WHO DO SUCH THINGS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, regardless of how much time passes, how little money it was, or how "good their intentions were" at the time...

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS... If those who have stolen from us trusting souls in the rocketry community (and their supporters) don't want to be called THIEVES AND CHEATS, then they should MAKE AMENDS FOR THEIR MISDEEDS, MAKE IT RIGHT and DO THE RIGHT THING and recover their lost honor and reputation. Until then, they need to be CALLED OUT and HELD ACCOUNTABLE-- not only to prevent other unsuspecting people from being victimized from these sorts of scum, but also to HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, and therefore keep OTHERS who might also be tempted to make such poor decisions or deliberately mislead or steal pause to consider the ramifications of their actions...

Later! OL J R

[luke strawwalker]

The link if anybody's interested... LOL:)

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthrea ... ge=1&pp=10

Later! OL J R

[bernomatic]

I'm sensing a lot of frustration here. The question is, are YOU going to be, as you're title for this thread implies, a hater who just hates? Or is there the possibility of some type of closure foot you?
I think in no small manner, you are looking for validation for your anger. You don't strike me as being the type always looking for something to gripe about, like some with the initials G.G. You have been wronged. Are you now just fomenting anger to get back at those you wronged you? I think you're smart enough to see that line of action will end up just wearing you down in the end, because there never will be the justice you seek. If you received a check in the mail tomorrow for the full subscription price you paid, would you never say another word about it?
You are correct, you were wronged, and it makes it that much worse for you because you believe that those who hurt you will never be brought to account. With that, I don't agree. In some way, our some how, you can counter on them having already or in the future paying. Karma is a bitch. Of that isn't enough for you, I guess you 'll just have to go on hating.

[luke strawwalker]

I guess that's one way to look at it. It's not that I hate them, It's just the PRINCIPLE of the thing.

Too many people get a "free pass" anymore and it just INFURIATES me when "the crowd" just gives these types of A-holes a free pass when they do stuff like this. If we don't hold people accountable, and REMIND OTHERS how these people have behaved in the past, we will be plagued by their like forever.

There WAS a time when "your name is MUD!" meant something... If someone got the reputation of being a crook or a liar, they were DONE... they had to pull up stakes and go somewhere that NOBODY knew them and start over... and HOPE that nobody they knew ever crossed their path, recognized them, and clued everyone else in on their misdeeds.

Personally I think we should go back to those days. This society has gotten SO permissive, SO "forgiving" that now NOTHING is out of bounds (except holding a politically incorrect worldview).

Forgiveness is a GOOD thing, make no mistake about it... BUT, forgiveness must be SOUGHT by those who do wrong, in making amends for their wrongdoing (or attempting to). There has been NO such effort, EVER, by those clowns.
Forgiveness should NEVER just be "blindly given"... otherwise it's just "acceptance" or "tacit complacency". It excuses the bad behavior without any consequences for bad actions. I've heard of crime victims friends or loved ones "forgiving" the perpetrator, even if they died in their murderous rampages... It cannot be "forgiveness" because a dead perpetrator cannot ASK for forgiveness or suffer the consequences of his actions. Nor can "forgiveness" truly be given for the deeds themselves, because dead people aren't around and cannot grant forgiveness... injured survivors can, but not dead ones. What people are REALLY doing is granting "acceptance" to what happened for their own "closure", which is a good and healthy thing, I suppose.

SO, AM I "clinging on" to this and letting it fester?? No, not really. I don't think about it except when someone mentions it on one of the forums from time to time, usually every few years or so. When I DO think about it, do I get angry and want to lash out?? No, not really-- I just recall that a wrong was done, not only to me but to a lot of other people too. DO I feel like I should reiterate what "those people" did and remind everyone that they are untrustworthy and made no effort to atone for their misdeeds, ABSOLUTELY!

I know that's the ONLY form of "atonement" I'll ever get, which is fine. I have a long memory and I have NO PROBLEM reminding people that "they're name is MUD!"

IF I got a check in the mail tomorrow, would I shut up and never mention it again?? I'd be the first to thank them publicly for doing the right thing and would make that known just as widely. When the history is told, an additional chapter would be added-- "and after about ten years they FINALLY made it good and corrected their actions... THE END".

If you want to psychoanalyze that, well, that's up to you. Seems okay to me...

Later! OL J R

[bernomatic]

I don't needed to analyze anything, I just sometimes try to add balance. You are an adult and have been wronged, I don't think you should forget about it, nor even necessarily forgive. It's the way you talk about the defenders as if they are doing something equally as terrible as the original transgressors.

And btw, do you know the origin of the phrase "his name is Mudd?"

[luke strawwalker]

I don't needed to analyze anything, I just sometimes try to add balance. You are an adult and have been wronged, I don't think you should forget about it, nor even necessarily forgive. It's the way you talk about the defenders as if they are doing something equally as terrible as the original transgressors.

And btw, do you know the origin of the phrase "his name is Mudd?"

No, I don't... sounds interesting...

Well, I just get sick and tired of people charging to the defense of people who have done wrong and are IN THE WRONG. Our entire society has shifted to this paradigm and it's not good... it'll eventually be our undoing.

That's why I'm SO against people who do that sort of thing...

Later! OL J R

[bernomatic]

Dr. Samuel Mudd was convicted by a military tribunal of conspiring to kill the president (Abe Lincoln). It is one of the more controversial convictions of that episode, which includes the conviction and hanging of Mary Surratt, the first woman executed by the U.S. Federal Government.

While the details are debatable, the main events are: Booth shoots Lincoln and messes up his leg grandstanding by jumping onto the stage to deliver his infamous "sic semper tyrannis"; Booth then hightails it out of town; needing his leg attended to, Booth stops at Dr. Mudd's house in the middle of the night for medical help; Booth then continues his flight. While he was pardoned by President Andrew Johnson in 1869, his family has been trying to get his conviction overturned to no avail.

After the assassination, all of the union was in a highly agitated state, (think of the United States after 9/11). Anyone having any connection to anyone having associated with the killers of that day were rounded up and tried. The aforementioned Mary Surratt was a boarding house owner whose son helped in the conspiracy. Since she allowed his friends to meet in her boarding house, the thought was she must have been in on it. Imagine that, you let your daughter have some friends over, and you pay with your life. So feelings were elevated and good people let that temper there views.

I wouldn't just view Wikipedia's article on Dr. Mudd, I have noted some bias in it, but it is a good place to get an overview. As an example, In one section it states

During the conspiracy trial, Lieutenant Alexander Lovett testified, "On Friday, the 21st of April, I went to Mudd's again, for the purpose of arresting him. When he found we were going to search the house, he said something to his wife, and she went up stairs and brought down a boot. Mudd said he had cut it off the man's leg. I turned down the top of the boot, and saw the name 'J. Wilkes' written in it."

Yet in another,

He also hid the monogrammed boot that he had cut off Booth's injured leg behind a panel in his attic, but the thorough search of Mudd's house soon revealed this further evidence against him.

The assassination and its aftermath is a most interesting part of our history.

[luke strawwalker]

Dr. Samuel Mudd was convicted by a military tribunal of conspiring to kill the president (Abe Lincoln). It is one of the more controversial convictions of that episode, which includes the conviction and hanging of Mary Surratt, the first woman executed by the U.S. Federal Government.

While the details are debatable, the main events are: Booth shoots Lincoln and messes up his leg grandstanding by jumping onto the stage to deliver his infamous "sic semper tyrannis"; Booth then hightails it out of town; needing his leg attended to, Booth stops at Dr. Mudd's house in the middle of the night for medical help; Booth then continues his flight. While he was pardoned by President Andrew Johnson in 1869, his family has been trying to get his conviction overturned to no avail.

After the assassination, all of the union was in a highly agitated state, (think of the United States after 9/11). Anyone having any connection to anyone having associated with the killers of that day were rounded up and tried. The aforementioned Mary Surratt was a boarding house owner whose son helped in the conspiracy. Since she allowed his friends to meet in her boarding house, the thought was she must have been in on it. Imagine that, you let your daughter have some friends over, and you pay with your life. So feelings were elevated and good people let that temper there views.

I wouldn't just view Wikipedia's article on Dr. Mudd, I have noted some bias in it, but it is a good place to get an overview. As an example, In one section it states

During the conspiracy trial, Lieutenant Alexander Lovett testified, "On Friday, the 21st of April, I went to Mudd's again, for the purpose of arresting him. When he found we were going to search the house, he said something to his wife, and she went up stairs and brought down a boot. Mudd said he had cut it off the man's leg. I turned down the top of the boot, and saw the name 'J. Wilkes' written in it."

Yet in another,

He also hid the monogrammed boot that he had cut off Booth's injured leg behind a panel in his attic, but the thorough search of Mudd's house soon revealed this further evidence against him.

The assassination and its aftermath is a most interesting part of our history.

Oh, ok... Yeah I saw the movie with Dennis Weaver years ago... forgot about it.

Thought you were going to whip up something from Star Trek like "Mudd's Women"... LOL:)

Later! OL J R

PS. Agree, most fascinating!