Sagitta Cantina

From all I could glean from this instance the seller deserved the Virtual "Oleum" (FUMING Vitriol) flung his way.

I liked "LAUNCH" magazine when it existed, but I smelled a RAT right from when it began. It was always published either sporadically or late with a laundry-list of bogus excuses of problems resulting in late publication, combined issues, etc.
While the product was great when it existed, I honestly expected it to fold much quicker than it did based on the jackasstic method it randomly arrived at the bookstores. I continually and VITRIOLICALLY bashed the publishers on the forums over this which is EXACTLY what they deserved over their endlessly long ASININE list of supposed problems/excuses. I naturally received several 'reprimands' for this on one particular website, with my posts removed with no trace of them remaining.
It was painfully obvious to me that the site was getting ad dollars from the SCUMBAG CHARLATAIN CROOKS that were publishing that rag.
Based on the RANDOM fashion LAUNCH Mag was published, I was never hoodwinked into subscribing, thankfully.
I group the publishers of LAUNCH along with Sheri's Hot Rockets in the same group.
PURE SCUM. PDR (Pimp Daddy Rocketry) can also be placed into that group as well- while I REALLY liked their kits and also had great dealings directly with them, several others got RIPPED OFF when they were "cutting and running" while making up tons of excuses about ill health, etc...once they folded all got STIFFED...no refunds and no kits. I thankfully purchased all my PDR stuff in their early days before any problems arose.
I don't rate those that perpetually say they are "Coming Back Soon" (such as Q-Modeling) or those that announce new products that are VAPORWARE that never come to market (Quest with their 18mm D and 29mm BP-SU Thunderjet E and F motors) as much better. That is still a form of a RIPOFF by generating a bunch of buzz and hype, never to deliver.
ALWAYS under promise and OVER deliver !
Over-promising and UNDER-delivering are scumbag ripoff business tactics as well.

Agree completely, GH. I was surprised I didn't get flamed for my reference to the THIEVES that were running "Launch" magazine. I got flamed AT LEAST on three separate occasions for DARING to criticize those thieves.

And, they ARE THIEVES. When you take money paid in good faith for product you never deliver, it's THEFT.

Course, that doesn't stop their "buddies" from defending them to the death... "Oh, they've done SO much good for the hobby!" YEAH, WITH MONEY STOLEN FROM OTHER PEOPLE! Hell, I could look like a hero too, donating a *oops you said word #1-ton of money for this or that to splash my name everywhere and sell BOGUS subscriptions and rip people off... except I have MORALS and VALUES and DON'T STEAL FROM OTHERS. I gotta hand it to them, it was quite a racket... I guess you can steal all the money you can get away with and STILL be regarded as a hero so long as you "grease the right palms" by spreading around a portion of the ill-gotten gain for "charity" or "to support the hobby". Everybody thinks of you as a "Robin Hood" and cheers you on... except the people you screwed over! I don't care HOW MANY assholes on the Turd/Rat Forum tells me "it's raining"... I KNOW when my leg has been peed on!

It wasn't the most expensive lesson of my life, but it taught me a VALUABLE lesson-- NEVER trust "startups" like that again. You mentioned all the "vaporware" in rocketry... YUP! Taught me the lesson, "I'll believe it when I see it..." (STILL waiting on the "all new FSI that's going to launch *any day now* LOL:)) I don't even pay any attention to the "big news releases" by these manufacturers and stuff anymore-- I'll believe it when I see it on the shelf or listed as "in stock" on a vendor website. Til then, it's all "just talk" IMHO. If some of these jokers would work more on ACTUALLY GETTING PRODUCT MOVING instead of MAKING A BIG HOO-HAH ABOUT ALL THE CRAP YOU'RE *GOING* TO DO, there'd be a lot less vaporware out there...

Yet, there's always a "subset" that will defend even the most indefensible jokers out there, NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, or HOW EGREGIOUS IT IS. The "Launch" magazine bunch is a case in point. SHR is another one, and the well-known issues with Red Arrow Hobbies is another... although Dave hasn't, to my knowledge, actually stiffed anybody-- may keep you waiting for MONTHS for your product, but eventually you get it, or a refund. Still, *oops you said word #2-poor way of doing business IMHO. I got flamed one time for blowing the whistle on Tim Van Milligan one time... the self-declared "king of customer service" basically blew me off when I was having problems with RockSim... I was trading emails with him trying to get it to work on my new computer (back when computers were advancing SO fast that you basically replaced them every other year) and was having problems getting RS8 to install on the new computer. His ever-so-helpful comment-- "that's why you should have bought a Mac". Thanks a bunch-- wonderful advice-- how about "if your friggin' software won't work with PC's, then HOW ABOUT YOU QUIT MARKETING IT AS WORKING ON PC'S! Advertise it as "unstable in Windows, for reliable use install it on a Mac ONLY..." Gee, could it be because it would HURT SALES?? How about you quit making smart-ass remarks and SUPPORT THE FRIGGIN PRODUCT I PAID NEARLY $100 BUCKS FOR! Stop telling me "how wonderful you are at customer service, and SHOW me how wonderful you are at customer service!"... When the time came for him to SELL me a $40 upgrade to RS9, I passed... no sense spending money on something that gave problems MANY times... FINALLY got it to work, but it was more dumb luck than any help I got from him. Don't get me wrong, Tim's a good guy, I've bought a lot of stuff from him over the years, and he was very kind to my wife, young daughter, and me when we stopped at Apogee Rockets in Colorado Springs years ago... but "flawless customer service", I think not. Then there's the fact that he basically BADMOUTHS *anybody* who isn't a big spending FREQUENT customer-- and he says so PUBLICLY in his writings! He's published several articles in his "Peak of Flight" newsletter and elsewhere on the subject-- basically saying that "unless you're a frequent repeat customer spending a lot of money with him, you're not worth the effort to give you excellent customer service... the frequent repeat customer spending a lot of money with him is his "bread and butter" and who he focuses on pleasing-- the "drop in now and then and buy something" type customer just doesn't matter, so he's not going to expend much effort on pleasing you". Very shitty attitude IMHO... the BEST customer service companies I've seen focus on pleasing EVERY customer, whether they're spending $5 or $5,000 dollars on the sale, and whether they come in once a year or once a day. One thing Tim IS "best" at, is "tooting his own horn". He'll tell you how wonderful he is on every page!

I agree the seller in the YORF thread deserved everything he got. IMHO he rolled the dice, hoping for a "sucker" that didn't care WHAT condition what he was buying was in, so long as he had "that kit" in his collection, rotting in a tub in a closet somewhere. He didn't figure on getting someone who would actually look the kit over and planned to build it or whatever, and he got called on the carpet on it, which is why he issued a refund SO quick! It's a shitty trick, but very common...

Later! OL J R

That DIRTBAG tombatony has that PIECE-OF-$HIT opened K-21 Gemini Titan back on ebay with a description of listed as "Only listed as Used due to kit being opened" but we all know this is another SCAM by this CROOK SWINDLER of a seller.
Danny already returned it obviously and this scumbag is trying to find a sucker to unload it upon.
This seller is a bona-fide PIECE OF $HIT.
Don't fall for this swindler and don't bid on ANY of his crap.