Sagitta Cantina

Well, I see the bootlickers have come out of the woodwork over on YORF because I *DARED* to say that Apogee Components isn't THE greatest rocket company in the history of the universe...

I pointed out that on SEVERAL occasions Tim Van Milligan has said in as many words that, paraphrasing, "unless you're one of his "best customers", meaning a "frequent" or repeat (regular) customer, he's just not as interested in making sure you're happy with Apogee." He's said that in A FEW "PEAK OF FLIGHT" newsletter articles over the years. He's also denigrated clubs asking for "freebies" for giveaways or fund raisers for their clubs, saying that the 'advertising' he gets from such efforts aren't worth the trouble, and called people who read his POF newsletter or watch his "rocketry workshop" videos on Youtube or his site without buying stuff from him regularly as "deadbeats" or "freeloaders", and has chastised people commenting that his prices are higher than other vendors for the same products, saying that he doesn't really want their business.

I also relayed the experience I had with Apogee, when I spent $100 bucks for RockSim 8. I had a lot of problems installing it on my new Windows Vista computer I bought specifically (from my point of view-- Betty had her own uses) to run RockSim... I traded several emails with Tim and in the first one he basically told me "that's why you should have bought a Mac" and that kinda pissed me off... I had specifically asked if RS 8 would run on a Windows machine before I bought it, and he assured me it would work fine, but suggested Mac. Well, Mac wouldn't work for what my wife needed to do with the computer, and would have caused other problems for us. Anyway, I thought that was a pretty SHITTY thing to say to a CUSTOMER who just spent a hundred bucks (more actually because I bought some other stuff at the same time) on product from you. I was EXTREMELY tempted to tell him "then WHY THE HELL are you selling RockSim SAYING it will run on a Windows machine if it's TOO UNSTABLE OR WON'T INSTALL PROPERLY on a Windows machine but runs 'fine' on a Mac... Why don't you just sell it as "for Macs only... may or may not work on Windows machines". But I didn't because I didn't want to repay an "asshole" comment with an "asshole" comment...

So, evidently, according to some asshats, pointing out comments made by the owner of Apogee that he doesn't value non-repeat customers as much as repeat or regular customers, and doesn't want the business of people he considers to be cheapskates or freeloaders (who read his POF newsletter or watches his videos but then buys from cheaper vendors instead of paying a higher price to him "just because" to support him, or go looking for a lower price and won't buy from him because he won't match it) is some kind of a crime... never mind that you're just quoting what he himself said, or what really happened in your own dealings with his company.

Oh well... some people's children... say ANYTHING they disagree with or that isn't flattering for their sacred cow, and they hit the ceiling... Typical...

Later! OL J R

I split this off the other topic so those wishing to discuss Apogee don't have to search in the Red Arrow Hobby thread.

There's an old saying attributed to President Lincoln,

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

Well the same can be said of customer service. Just replace please for the word fool.
Far be it from me to attack another sacred cow, there was something off a little with one of the Semroc products I bought from Carl's SemRoc. It was minor and piddly, but me being the OCD person I am, it really annoyed me to no end. I didn't bother to talk with anyone there and it since passed into that area of my brain in which things will pop up from time to time to irritate or embarrass me. You know like that story you told your girl back in sixth grade that wasn't a lie, but wasn't totally true? So I'm not trying to throw off another thread about SemRoc problems (it would probably wither on the vine). The point is that how can anyone criticize anyone for criticizing something without truly being deemed a hypocrite?

I've never bought anything from Apogee. I did stop in at Red Arrow about 6 years ago when I was doing some work at the Palisades nuke plant. This was in the winter, so it was not hot and stuffy inside.

bernomatic wrote:I split this off the other topic so those wishing to discuss Apogee don't have to search in the Red Arrow Hobby thread.

There's an old saying attributed to President Lincoln,

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

Well the same can be said of customer service. Just replace please for the word fool.
Far be it from me to attack another sacred cow, there was something off a little with one of the Semroc products I bought from Carl's SemRoc. It was minor and piddly, but me being the OCD person I am, it really annoyed me to no end. I didn't bother to talk with anyone there and it since passed into that area of my brain in which things will pop up from time to time to irritate or embarrass me. You know like that story you told your girl back in sixth grade that wasn't a lie, but wasn't totally true? So I'm not trying to throw off another thread about SemRoc problems (it would probably wither on the vine). The point is that how can anyone criticize anyone for criticizing something without truly being deemed a hypocrite?

Well, lemme say first, I'm NOT "knocking" Tim or Apogee... Like I said in the other thread, (which suddenly got VERY quiet-- maybe some folks that were spouting off went and read what he said-- some of us DO have a memory that retains things for more than five minutes... LOL:)) Anyway, I've bought different stuff from Tim over the years, and been generally pleased. I'd rate their customer service as probably #2 behind Carl's SEMROC, maybe tied with Estes for #2 actually... I was just VERY PO'd at the attitude I got about the RS8 when I was having problems; it struck me as 'passing the buck' and was just a shitty comment that was uncalled for. In the end, he DID stand behind the product (on several occasions) and made it right, so I'm not displeased with the RESULTS; it's just the shitty roundabout way we went to GET to the results...

IMHO customer service is more than just 'talk'... Tim breaks his own arm patting himself on the back-- his website is FLOODED with "customer comments" just slathering on praise and smoke up the butt about how wonderful they are... and Tim will NEVER pass up the opportunity to tell you how WONDERFUL their customer service is and how dedicated they are to customer service... BUT, then he will also occasionally comment on how he's not worried about people looking for better prices because basically they're cheapskates, or if you're not paying more to buy from him and you're looking at his POF newsletters or rocketry videos you're basically a thief, or if you're not a bigtime customer who buys from him frequently then you're "just not worth messing with". He's even said he really doesn't want such people for his customers. That's a great attitude to have-- insulting POTENTIAL customers and basically telling them to "get lost" in so many words... How does that jibe with "unparalleled customer service"... It DOESN'T in my book. A guy might THINK that, but putting it out there for the whole world to see, is QUITE another thing... Tim charges what Tim figures that the market will bear, like most things in life, and uses part of what he charges to give very good customer service. That costs something and no people shouldn't expect it "for free"... BUT, neither can or should a businessman EXPECT folks to pay more for the same thing they can get elsewhere, usually SUBSTANTIALLY CHEAPER than they can from Apogee... Of course, the customer service MAY NOT be there with the cheaper price; that's a risk the buyer has to decide if they want to take or not... Just look at Red Arrow-- terrific prices, but LOUSY (virtually nonexistent) customer service... It's also just a "given" that SOME percentage of folks are going to read the POF newsletters or watch the rocketry videos on his site and NEVER ORDER ANYTHING... Sad but true, so WHY harp on it?? Why call people out and INSULT them over it?? Trying to "guilt" someone into buying something?? I guess that's as good an explanation as any.

Which brings up another point-- Tim uses some sales tactics that frankly embarrass me... read his newsletters or product descriptions, and sooner or later you'll come across something similar to the following-- "With this rocket, you'll be the most popular guy in your club-- everybody will be coming over, patting you on the back and asking you how you built such a COOL and AMAZING rocket that flies SO WELL... you'll be the hit of your club's launch!" So I guess if a guilt trip on "freeloaders" gets him a few sales, then fawning basically misleading advertising isn't off the table either, huh. How does that fit with "unparalleled customer service"?? It doesn't IMHO...

Anyway, those sort of statements that he's made just end up with me facepalming... I can't believe he said it. I know Tim is a friendly guy and an aeronautical engineer and very technically minded; so I try to "explain away" these sorts of foibles as being sorta "white zone" when it comes to how he comes across in his speech or writing... maybe just doesn't realize how what he says sounds to other people, how it comes across or the impression it leaves behind. Then again, maybe he DOES and just DOESN'T CARE how it looks or sounds...

As for Semroc, like I said, I ordered from them a number of times, and most times it was EXTREMELY quickly delivered and was perfectly spot-on with everything correct and in good shape. Seems like once there was some sort of minor foul-up, and AS SOON as I contacted them, I had the correction IN THE MAIL by 4 pm that SAME DAY, with a VERY apologetic tone to the communications... THAT is *great* customer service in MY book... (Sorry bernie but I honestly don't see how you can fault them for an issue that YOU NEVER COMMUNICATED TO THEM FOR THEM TO CORRECT!) I'm SURE they would have been equally quick to correct any problem you had; that's just the way they ran their company. And unlike Apogee and Tim, they always seemed just as happy to have an order and dedicated to giving it 100% full effort to get it out right and ON TIME, no matter if the order was for $4 or $400 dollars... THAT is a HUGE difference between Apogee and Semroc. It's the ATTITUDE that makes the difference.

Later! OL J R

Joe Wooten wrote:I've never bought anything from Apogee. I did stop in at Red Arrow about 6 years ago when I was doing some work at the Palisades nuke plant. This was in the winter, so it was not hot and stuffy inside.

LOL:) Hope you had your mittens...

Yeah, buying from the Red Arrow shop was no problem-- wide selection and great prices. It was the mail/web order side of the business that TOTALLY fell flat on its face, mostly because of the way Dave chose to fill orders.

Again, part of that comes with the "lowest price". If you're filling orders and not making much per item, you simply cannot invest the same kind of time and effort into it as you can if you're charging more for "great customer service". I get that-- it's a difference in mindset and how folks want to run their business. You print the order out on a sheet, tape it to a box, grab the stuff and toss it in and mark everything off. If everything is marked off, tape the box shut, print a mailing label and stick it on the box, and stack it on the pile by the door for the delivery driver to pick up. If everything is NOT there, you put it in another stack until whatever's not there now comes in. If you're not making much off it, you don't want to spend the time or effort to go through the orders and email people or ship a partial shipment and then have to do ANOTHER part shipment when the other thing comes in... BUT, that needs to be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD by all parties, if you plan to operate that way. Sadly, I think a LOT of people didn't realize that's how he did business, and it caused a LOT of grief and anger in the process...

Later! OL J R

Tim/Apogee's comments about higher prices is irritating. I'd bet he isn't so cavalier about prices when it's his dough he is forking over for something he is buying. I'd kind of hope things like that would not be boasted about. I will give him credit for producing two beautiful kits, the Saturn 1B and V. I even bought one of his replacement capsules to use on my Semroc Saturn 1B kit. (Maybe I would not have been allowed to buy it if he knew, but I do have his 1B kit ...).

Now, regarding Semroc, there just was not a finer family than the McLawhorns. I talked to Sheryl several times via email, to inquire about orders and a few times about parts. I messed up a wrap on. Mars Lander, and emailed her to inquire about ordering a spare. She emailed me back maybe 10 minutes later saying it was in the mail to me! Free of charge, they paid postage. I've heard numerous other stories like this I met them at NARAM in Colorado in 2010. I spent maybe an hour in their booth talking to both Carl and Sheryl. It was like meeting old friends. Bill Simon, of Estes fame, was in the booth. I told him I met him in 1966 when I was a teenager. We visited Estes Industries and he gave us a tour. If you are unfamiliar with a Bill, he was the inventor of several classics, amongst them, the Sky Hook, and the Alpha. Carl had a special Bill Simon Sky Hook kit for NARAM, and gave me one, and asked if I'd like Bill Simon to sign it. What an experience. I'll never forget meeting them. When Carl passed away, and it became apparent that she and family would not continue the business, I sent Sheryl a letter, telling her how much everyone would miss their wonderful products and great personal service. I was happy to discover later that eRockets would take over, and prove to do such a good job.

My final comment -- Apogee could learn a lot by emulating Semroc. They treated any customer like their best customer. Also, some may not know -- they gave a big discount at the end of the year, based on what you had ordered. They also gave a healthy discount to NAR members. I'm not sure, really, how they could make a profit .

Seeing as how I am one of the many manufacturers in the Apogee stable I should probably avoid comment. Fat chance!

Timothy S. Van Milligan has treated me fairly and honestly during our five year business relationship. I occasionally buy things from Apogee but have also bought stuff from Hobbylinc, Hobby Lobby, Red Arrow and many others. I regret not having ever purchased anything from Semroc, as the McLawhorns from all accounts appear to be wonderful people.

Tim is a businessman and runs his business as he sees fit. He has overhead which includes a paid staff, telephones and an actual brick and mortar building. He prices the products he sells to make a profit. If he does not make a profit his business ends. Some people hate him because he has been successful with this model, much like some people hate Tom Brady. He does not post on the "forums" and sometimes comes across as stiff and unfriendly...or smart.

Apogee Components is not the only business that specializes in hobby rocketry, which is a tiny marketplace when compared to other leisure activities like fishing and hunting. Now you can buy stuff at the Walmart sporting goods department and save money as compared to Cabela's, but Walmart lacks certain products and Cabela's lacks that certain pungent aroma.

For those of you who do not like the way Apogee sells the things I make for them, please feel free to buy these things direct from me at the same exact retail price Tim charges. Hurry, I've only got 30 good years left!

http://www.macklinmissileworks.com/

Just like people, all company's have their good days and bad days. As a business person I understand the model, as a consumer I appreciate good courteous service. I have only placed a couple of orders to Apogee over the years and my experience has been that the price and service were beyond excellent.

For me, they fixed a problem before I knew I had one. I purchased one of the first Altimeter 1's and it had a problem keeping the casing together early on but before I could even get mine to the field. Several others had the problem with their altimeters about the same time, and as soon as Apogee was aware there was a problem, they took the initiative and contacted me to let me know there was a problem and they would handle it asap, which they did. I was very impressed and they did so, cheerfully.

What they didn't know was since I was one of the first to get the Altimeter 1 from them, Randy was itching to do a review of it and Apogee. We aren't the only website with a rocketry blog but we do get quite a few visits each month and Randy is always fair but honest when it comes to this kind of thing. They got an excellent review because we were impressed with the way they handled the problem without excuse or delay.

As for Tim personally, I have known him to be cordial, helpful and great to interact with on more than just rocketry. And that goes for the people he employs too.

I would tell anyone that if you have an issue and it isn't resolved to your satisfaction, buy from another supplier. Having helped more than 1,000 people start a small business over my career I know small businesses can make mistakes but I always remember that I'm not perfect and I very rarely write off any person or business because of one bad experience.

Always do what works for you.

Trident wrote:Tim/Apogee's comments about higher prices is irritating. I'd bet he isn't so cavalier about prices when it's his dough he is forking over for something he is buying. I'd kind of hope things like that would not be boasted about. I will give him credit for producing two beautiful kits, the Apollo 1B and V. I even bought one of his replacement capsules to use on my Semroc Apollo 1B kit. (Maybe I would not have been allowed to buy it if he knew, but I do have his 1B kit ...).

Now, regarding Semroc, there just was not a finer family than the McLawhorns. I talked to Sheryl several times via email, to inquire about orders and a few times about parts. I messed up a wrap on. Mars Lander, and emailed her to inquire about ordering a spare. She emailed me back maybe 10 minutes later saying it was in the mail to me! Free of charge, they paid postage. I've heard numerous other stories like this I met them at NARAM in Colorado in 2010. I spent maybe an hour in their booth talking to both Carl and Sheryl. It was like meeting old friends. Bill Simon, of Estes fame, was in the booth. I told him I met him in 1966 when I was a teenager. We visited Estes Industries and he gave us a tour. If you are unfamiliar with a Bill, he was the inventor of several classics, amongst them, the Sky Hook, and the Alpha. Carl had a special Bill Simon Sky Hook kit for NARAM, and gave me one, and asked if I'd like Bill Simon to sign it. What an experience. I'll never forget meeting them. When Carl passed away, and it became apparent that she and family would not continue the business, I sent Sheryl a letter, telling her how much everyone would miss their wonderful products and great personal service. I was happy to discover later that eRockets would take over, and prove to do such a good job.

My final comment -- Apogee could learn a lot by emulating Semroc. They treated any customer like their best customer. Also, some may not know -- they gave a big discount at the end of the year, based on what you had ordered. They also gave a healthy discount to NAR members. I'm not sure, really, how they could make a profit .

Agree completely... There just WAS no higher class act than the McLawhorns and the old Semroc. PERIOD. Tim's in second place; he does a good job but his ATTITUDE, at least in the way he comes across with some of the stuff he writes, just kinda stinks IMHO. THAT is the difference.

I don't have a problem with people pricing stuff to make a profit. This is America, and that's how capitalism works. If the price is too high, folks aren't going to buy from him, and the business fails. If its too low and he can't make a profit, the business fails. Sometimes it's a fine line. So long as there are competitors who "keep each other honest", so be it. I know when I had my custom hay baling business and was selling some hay on the side, that there is a fine line there... I baled for a neighbor up the road who paid me an extra dollar a roll because, and he told me this flat out, "you're working too cheap". I took that to heart, looked at what others were charging locally, and over time raised my prices closer to theirs. I was using 30 year old machinery and couldn't make as *pretty* of a round bale as the new guys, so I always charged less than they did... BUT, I got my butt down there when the customer called me wanting his ground baled; I didn't leave it set for a few weeks til I "got around to it" and I stayed on top of how their crop was drying down and baled it in a TIMELY manner, unlike some of my bigshot competitors who'd cut it, leave it lay a week in the blazing sun (ruining the quality) then come rake and bale it together (instead of raking at the proper time and giving it a day to dry like one normally would to preserve quality), and then go looking for money from the customer. Anyway, as times change, it got to where I was only getting folks looking for the work done "dirt cheap" (and trying to chew me down on my already lowest price around, which I wouldn't do-- I knew how much it cost me and what I needed to make a modest profit) or scumbags who had a reputation of not paying AT ALL after the work was done. Then you had guys happy as punch you baled their hay for them cheaper than anybody else, but then whined because "your bales aren't as nice and tight as the other guy" and such... Yeah, no *oops you said word #1-- they're using a $40,000 dollar new baler and I'm running one 30 years old that's paid for-- I never heard any complaints from the cows anyway... WHY do you think I can charge less for the same job?? That, and I'm not running around in a $45,000 new diesel pickup either... I finally just quit when my grandmother died and my Dad wanted to change our business arrangements to something that was unfavorable to me doing custom work. I quit selling hay for the same reason-- just not worth the aggravation, and folks wanting to buy "pretty" instead of 'good'.

Oh well...

Later! OL J R

Rocket Babe wrote:Just like people, all company's have their good days and bad days. As a business person I understand the model, as a consumer I appreciate good courteous service. I have only placed a couple of orders to Apogee over the years and my experience has been that the price and service were beyond excellent.

For me, they fixed a problem before I knew I had one. I purchased one of the first Altimeter 1's and it had a problem keeping the casing together early on but before I could even get mine to the field. Several others had the problem with their altimeters about the same time, and as soon as Apogee was aware there was a problem, they took the initiative and contacted me to let me know there was a problem and they would handle it asap, which they did. I was very impressed and they did so, cheerfully.

What they didn't know was since I was one of the first to get the Altimeter 1 from them, Randy was itching to do a review of it and Apogee. We aren't the only website with a rocketry blog but we do get quite a few visits each month and Randy is always fair but honest when it comes to this kind of thing. They got an excellent review because we were impressed with the way they handled the problem without excuse or delay.

As for Tim personally, I have known him to be cordial, helpful and great to interact with on more than just rocketry. And that goes for the people he employs too.

I would tell anyone that if you have an issue and it isn't resolved to your satisfaction, buy from another supplier. Having helped more than 1,000 people start a small business over my career I know small businesses can make mistakes but I always remember that I'm not perfect and I very rarely write off any person or business because of one bad experience.

Always do what works for you.

I agree... Tim's a great guy. We visited (my wife, young daughter, and I) Apogee's store in Colorado Springs a number of years ago. Tim took the time to talk rocketry with me a few minutes, his secretary got out a little "rocket pen" that had a spring-loaded launch pad for my wife and daughter to play with, gave us the tour of the "stockroom" and showed how they do things, even showed me the "LexxJet" prototype he was working on and going to soon release as a kit. I was really impressed. Estes, on the other hand, which we visited the next day, was at the time a shadow of what it once had been. The door was locked and nobody would even answer the door; a disembodied voice informed us they didn't accept visitors without a previous appointment. I did see the old gift shop and some of the models on display in there from the outer lobby door, but the rest of the place was overgrown with weeds and looked like it was one step from going away itself. I was glad Hobbico bought them out before they sank any deeper.

That's what was so disappointing when I bought RockSim and got snarky comments in the emails when I was having problems. I'm sorry but I don't consider that "excellent" customer service. Yeah, I know, everybody has "their days" and stuff, and maybe that was it. I can forgive and forget that, because EVENTUALLY we DID get the program to work and later on when I went to install it on another computer my folks gave me, I found that the chrome layer on the disk had "bubbled up" in a few spots and the disk wouldn't read. I let them know and they sent me a new disk pronto, with a new access code. The experience with the snarky comments DID cause me to decide NOT to spend the additional money to upgrade to RS9 when it came out a half year or so later, though.

I think that in business, appearances matter. Not THE most important thing, but they ARE important. I'm sure that MOST businesses have their own ideas and predilections, preferences, whatever. MOST folks have their specific preferences, and choose or prefer not to do business with one company over another for various reasons. However, I think that most times it's better to just "keep that opinion to yourself" as a businessman-- maybe you THINK that folks who watch your videos or read your newsletter are cheapskates or scumbags if they go looking for a cheaper price rather than buy from you at a higher price, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T GO AROUND SPOUTING THAT! Maybe you DO put more value and effort into pleasing repeat customers and frequent customers, BUT YOU DON'T SAY THAT INFREQUENT CUSTOMERS ARE LESS IMPORTANT! It's about like going out with a girl and telling her, "well, you're kinda ugly, but I couldn't get a better date tonight, so you'll do..." It's just in POOR TASTE. Someone can THINK that to themselves but don't have to be an ASS and say it outright and then pat themselves on the back for being "honest"...

That's what I mean by "attitude".

Tim can run his business as he sees fit. He's successful, no doubt about it, and he does well. He wouldn't have lasted and have the reputation he does if he didn't. I just think maybe he could use a little more TACT...

Get my drift?? Later! OL J R